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Suggestions for next track toy?

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Hard to beat the safety / speed value combination of a tube-frame...not to mention the benefit of a "Crapping your pants for free!" thrill ride every lap!!

I know the guy selling this one:

https://www.racingjunk.com/NASA-Super-Unlimited/183936025/GTA-Stock-car-.html?category_id=1081&np_offset=7

 

Here's a TA2/GT2 Camaro, Mike Cope Chassis:

https://www.racingjunk.com/Road-Club-Racing/184015105/2015-Mike-Cope-Race-Cars-Camaro.html?category_id=5672&np_offset=26

 

And now for a production car....This is an ex-Phoenix Mustang - race prepped, I know the owner and the shop that maintains it (TRB Autosport / Derhaag - I'm on their team):

https://www.racingjunk.com/SCCA/183990343/2012-Mustang-Boss-302.html

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what about that rush SR-1 that is apparently not vaporware after all?

 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, lobster said:

what about that rush SR-1 that is apparently not vaporware after all?

It does look pretty cool...don't hold me to it, as I'm probably mistaken...but I thought I read that you actually never take possession of the car...that would be a deal killer for me...ie - it's an arrive n drive that you own...but you only get to use it during race weekends...hope I'm totally mistaken...as it does look like a fun track toy.

The wifey has been considering a Formula Mazda as a track toy - the downside to that is that *if* you were wanting to do HPDE only then you'd probably be SOL...however, no issues for us at ECR (and at other tracks where folks are members) as there are dedicated formula car sessions. Parts / consumables are CHEAP.

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54 minutes ago, BRZ4Science said:

They are like v6 Mustangs/Camaros at the track, nothing wrong with them but for the consumables you need you can either run a faster car for the same costs or a lighter car for much cheaper without giving up much/any speed.

Good point.

I’m also looking to improve P/W over a Miata, increase smiles, retain reliability, and stick to a streetable package that can be driven back and forth to events.

The FRS/BRZ/86 seemed pretty close to Miata P/W, with 17” tire surcharge.  The Z platform seemed to begin to try S2000 territory, without the S2000 tax.  And all of those stayed under C5/C6 territory.  All of those stepping from sub $10k to north of $20k buy in.

Then, sticking with the Miata chassis, and swapping to bump P/W, it’s tough to keep it that combo “comfortable” (A/C etc) for long transits from Houston, up to ECR, Cresson, etc, without that “comfort” meaning put the car on a trailer, and sit in the truck...

Still waiting for a lightbulb to come on, but so far just a dark room 😂

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True comfort comes from sipping champagne and tasting the best morsels of the sea at the rarified air of level 40 in your private jet whilst on the way to many a various world-class track knowing that your one-off ride is cradled in the arms of a dedicated transport...carefully unloaded while the crew wears gloves as soft as a baby's backside....hey, I can dream, right? So, one of my team mates (un-named for this) has the choice of at least three private jets available most of the time...however, he did have to fly commercial to check out his latest track toy, a bad to the bone Merc GT3....it was sort of the "condolence prize" of the bunch though...I swear, I'm not making this stuff up...I only fly commercial, first class, but always commercial...I "suffer" through it...then again...I've been flying a loooooong time...and still have a looooong time to go (fingers crossed LOL).

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the 350/370G has some fuel issues on track just like the FRS/FRZ, but they can be fixed with similar kit as to the Twins.  basically just a lift pump and a swirl tank addition.

Z is a bit heavy, but with proper aftermarket parts, consumable costs aren't that bad.  the stock brembo brakes on the early track models were only adequate.  proper track car would still need a stoptech or AP upgrade.  so add >$2500 to the price.   but then pads are cheap and last a long time.

17x10 wheels are no problem on the rear, not sure how wide the fronts can go.   I still have 3x RPF1 in 17x9 that I bought from Dave with the intention of using on my S14, but then I sold the S14 with 17x8 wheels.   never going to use those wheels I bought for the car.  dammit!

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24 minutes ago, Solo_S14 said:

The FRS/BRZ/86 seemed pretty close to Miata P/W, with 17” tire surcharge.  

You've driven mine, and you could get 80% of the performance with much less tinkering than I have done. I rest my case? 

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31 minutes ago, joesurf79 said:

You've driven mine, and you could get 80% of the performance with much less tinkering than I have done. I rest my case? 

Aside for COTA, I'm about 1sec behind Joe (#El_Tortuga) in his Mustang GT in my BRZ at half the running cost. I daily drive my car and can get a full set of tires and tools in the back with the seats folded down. I've road tripped down to Houston for trackdays without issue and in relative comfort (if you're careful about putting everything in you can fit everything for 2 people, wheels and tires, and tools without compromising the passenger seat space (you can even throw in a set of golf clubs if you need to).

The only modifications the stock car needs are: wheels and tires, pads and fluids, an oil cooler (at least here in Texas for peace of mind), and either camber plates or bolts up front to keep from killing the shoulders of your tires (camber bolts can get you enough).

Here's me playing with a Spec Boxster at ECR last weekend for a good comparison: 

 

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Nothing to add except that a BRZ probably wont be different enough for you once you've sunk the money into it.

A well sorted Z chassis can rock.

BMW- Id leave it at an E36, but thats certainly in the ballpark

My winner? Vette. C5 or 6. High consumable costs but parts are reasonable and plentiful. Perfectly nice to drive to the track and can be made up like a grand tourer

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23 minutes ago, Vinnieb said:

My winner? Vette. C5 or 6. High consumable costs but parts are reasonable and plentiful. Perfectly nice to drive to the track and can be made up like a grand tourer

 

GraveLeadingIndianabat-size_restricted.gif

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How many motors have you BRZ guys gone through? It seems like they like to go through them.

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28 minutes ago, robertcope said:

How many motors have you BRZ guys gone through? It seems like they like to go through them.

Only if you go FI and aren't conservative with the tune. I'm on my first engine after 5yrs, 60k miles, nearly 200 autox events, and 100 trackdays. The BRZ has been very reliable for me.

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9 hours ago, Solo_S14 said:

Why don’t we see more 350z’s at the track?

The good ones were 300+hp at the crank, they’re not “too far north” of 3,000lbs, and I think they can fit a decent sized tire stock.

Do their handling characteristics just suck?  Being a Nissan, I’m sure there’s lots of aftermarket support.

And you can pick up a 350z for $5-10k.....370z for $10-15k.

Have I just been blind to them, somehow being plentiful at events?

I'm gonna say that most people are going to shit on this car, but mine was setup pretty well. I feel like my lap times were pretty respectable. 350Zs are much more popular in the east from what I understand. The guy that bought mine says alot of people track them over there (He's in Atlanta). If you set it up right, the consumables aren't that much more than a miata. Its an underrated car in my opinion. I had the last gen HR version with a little more hp than older versions. I'm not sure how hard it'd be to find a clean one used, as I bought mine new in 08. Don't do the 370Z, thats a nightmare. lol. They have problems that are a little more expensive to fix. 

Anyway, they are nothing like Camaros or Mustangs, that just ignorant to say. Its a little more refined than a stick axle in back. (no offense to Stang/ Camaro drivers) lol. 

If I still had mine I'd toss ya the keys. It was a hoot to drive. 

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5 hours ago, Matt93SE said:

the 350/370G has some fuel issues on track just like the FRS/FRZ, but they can be fixed with similar kit as to the Twins.  basically just a lift pump and a swirl tank addition.

Z is a bit heavy, but with proper aftermarket parts, consumable costs aren't that bad.  the stock brembo brakes on the early track models were only adequate.  proper track car would still need a stoptech or AP upgrade.  so add >$2500 to the price.   but then pads are cheap and last a long time.

17x10 wheels are no problem on the rear, not sure how wide the fronts can go.   I still have 3x RPF1 in 17x9 that I bought from Dave with the intention of using on my S14, but then I sold the S14 with 17x8 wheels.   never going to use those wheels I bought for the car.  dammit!

 Mine never had fueling issues or oil pressure issues fwiw. That motor was a rock sold work horse.

 

You sold the S14?!?!?!?!?!? 😲 lol

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4 minutes ago, Dave said:

Anway, they are nothing like Camaros or Mustangs, that just ignorant to say. Its a little more refined than a stick axle in back. (no offense to Stang/ Camaro drivers) lol. 

 

I didn't mean that they drove the same, but that they fell in the same niche as far as performance and consumables. Tires are the primary consumable cost and the guys I know who used to run them ran big tires. They are cheap to buy though, so no reason not to try to test one out.

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11 minutes ago, BRZ4Science said:

I didn't mean that they drove the same, but that they fell in the same niche as far as performance and consumables. Tires are the primary consumable cost and the guys I know who used to run them ran big tires. They are cheap to buy though, so no reason not to try to test one out.

Ah ok.

Well I'm not sure what people are paying for tires right now, but I was getting a set of RC1s for like $700. As @Matt93SE was saying, I had smaller wheels than most people simply to save some money on tires. I think it made me a better driver in the end and the throttle steer on exit with 255s in the back is a giggle factory. But the 18X35X275 tires were about double that cost, so I'd agree with you if you run wide tires. 

image.png.e98247a7a716419c8a30b5154a10f0ed.png

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5 minutes ago, Dave said:

Ah ok.

Well I'm not sure what people are paying for tires right now, but I was getting a set of RC1s for like $700. As @Matt93SE was saying, I had smaller wheels than most people simply to save some money on tires. I think it made me a better driver in the end and the throttle steer on exit with 255s in the back is a giggle factory. But the 18X35X275 tires were about double that cost, so I'd agree with you if you run wide tires. 

image.png.e98247a7a716419c8a30b5154a10f0ed.png

255/40-17 is what I run on my BRZ. I think it was the 370z that came with 19" and up wheels, I think the autox guy who was running a 370z was on 19x10 or 19x11's, that would bankrupt me.

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12 minutes ago, BRZ4Science said:

255/40-17 is what I run on my BRZ. I think it was the 370z that came with 19" and up wheels, I think the autox guy who was running a 370z was on 19x10 or 19x11's, that would bankrupt me.

Haha, yeah I hear ya! There is a extra big bump for tires on 19" wheels for some reason. 20" tires are usually cheaper. I would never have 19 wheels because the tires cost too damn much.

And you can run a 18"X10" wheel all the way around on the 350Z. 

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295/30/18 Toyo RR is oddly 241 dollars a tire.   For some reason that particular size is considerably cheaper than 315 @ 370 per tire.   

I bought a set for TMS last year after discounts with trackdaytire it was sub 1000 bucks which is a great deal to me.  

They're just not as competitive as I need them to be to run them more often and save cash money.  

 

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For 2 sets of track tires and a set of autox tires I usually spend right around $2k and that's all the tires I need for an entire year (last year 30 days at the track and 10 autox, but I was using autox tires that I had started with halfway through the 2018 season). A set of 255/40-17 RS4's is typically around $600 and the RE71r's are about $800 in that size. I got about 20 days out of my last set of RS4's and I get 20-25 autox events out of a set of RE71r's (150 competitive runs typically, then they heat cycle out but will work for a day on the track).

Corvettes are great, but I just don't have the tire budget for one and I don't want to do fewer events to run a faster car. As it stands, I can run with all the local DE/HPDE/trackday organizations in any of their run groups and be "one of the fast guys". I'm faster than just about all the Miata (they'd have to be one hell of a driver and run slicks or a very well set up ND, which I haven't run into yet). Now, if more local fast guys drove faster cars then I could totally see feeling slow in my BRZ (luckily the faster cars usually have slower drivers at the DE events I go to). I take far more point-bys than I give, so I'm happy with the speed of the BRZ.

Now, you might have different needs. If you run with a group of fast guys in fast cars, you might need more car to be happy. In the fastest groups I'm at the bottom end of the 'fast guys', and if I ran at COTA there'd be no way to make up for the horsepower gap. Spending most of my time at ECR and MSR-C though, I've got enough car to keep towards the front of most groups (or at least go fast enough that I don't feel like I'm getting run over). I also love the slow car fast experience. If you're in a Corvette and you pass someone, unless you're one of the very fastest cars at the event, no one is impressed. Now, you pass someone in a BRZ or similar car on street tires with 100, 200, 300, 400, or even 500hp less than the car you're passing, you feel damned good about it and people notice. I get to play at the limit lap after lap and the car eats it up like a friendly puppy dog. Sure, you could try that in a faster car but as the limits increase so do the consequences.

The little cars are playful and fun, there are faster cars than my BRZ but you'd be hard-pressed to have more fun in anything than I have in my BRZ. Your situation could be vastly different though, so if you've got different priorities or run with different types of groups or compete in a series where specific cars match up better with the classing rules or are more competitive then you might find a different answer. But, if you want a daily driver capable car that you can track every weekend then I think you'd be very happy with a BRZ, I am.

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the oiling issues on the BRZ can be fixed with a baffled oil pan.  Moroso makes a bolt on one now, so you don't even have to do the mods yourself.

 

The fuel issues are fixed by 1: either keep it above 1/2 tank, or 2: radium (or other) swirl tank kit mounted in the trunk.

 

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44 minutes ago, Matt93SE said:

The fuel issues are fixed by - 2: radium (or other) swirl tank kit mounted in the trunk.

 

I can vouch for the radium tank - Works like a champ! 

On e85, it would happen with more than half a tank, and the little "flapper trap door" part that verus sells to try to keep the in-tank basket from draining does nothing under decent sustained g load. 

RearFirewall.thumb.jpg.b9d666d5492a809d436f61804962d72b.jpg

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13 hours ago, BRZ4Science said:

For 2 sets of track tires and a set of autox tires I usually spend right around $2k and that's all the tires I need for an entire year (last year 30 days at the track and 10 autox, but I was using autox tires that I had started with halfway through the 2018 season). A set of 255/40-17 RS4's is typically around $600 and the RE71r's are about $800 in that size. I got about 20 days out of my last set of RS4's and I get 20-25 autox events out of a set of RE71r's (150 competitive runs typically, then they heat cycle out but will work for a day on the track).

Corvettes are great, but I just don't have the tire budget for one and I don't want to do fewer events to run a faster car. As it stands, I can run with all the local DE/HPDE/trackday organizations in any of their run groups and be "one of the fast guys". I'm faster than just about all the Miata (they'd have to be one hell of a driver and run slicks or a very well set up ND, which I haven't run into yet). Now, if more local fast guys drove faster cars then I could totally see feeling slow in my BRZ (luckily the faster cars usually have slower drivers at the DE events I go to). I take far more point-bys than I give, so I'm happy with the speed of the BRZ.

Now, you might have different needs. If you run with a group of fast guys in fast cars, you might need more car to be happy. In the fastest groups I'm at the bottom end of the 'fast guys', and if I ran at COTA there'd be no way to make up for the horsepower gap. Spending most of my time at ECR and MSR-C though, I've got enough car to keep towards the front of most groups (or at least go fast enough that I don't feel like I'm getting run over). I also love the slow car fast experience. If you're in a Corvette and you pass someone, unless you're one of the very fastest cars at the event, no one is impressed. Now, you pass someone in a BRZ or similar car on street tires with 100, 200, 300, 400, or even 500hp less than the car you're passing, you feel damned good about it and people notice. I get to play at the limit lap after lap and the car eats it up like a friendly puppy dog. Sure, you could try that in a faster car but as the limits increase so do the consequences.

The little cars are playful and fun, there are faster cars than my BRZ but you'd be hard-pressed to have more fun in anything than I have in my BRZ. Your situation could be vastly different though, so if you've got different priorities or run with different types of groups or compete in a series where specific cars match up better with the classing rules or are more competitive then you might find a different answer. But, if you want a daily driver capable car that you can track every weekend then I think you'd be very happy with a BRZ, I am.

 

Another thought as to why faster cars are shit for DE's is that once you're the least slowest person at a DE you perpetually have to deal with traffic.  Go out first... catch up to the rear of the grid in a lap or 2 depending on track.   

The thing I've noticed with a lot of DE's is that even in the "advanced" run groups the drivers are still pretty slow ESPECIALLY the faster cars.    The slower cars tend to have better drivers for reasons you've already highlighted about risk, the limit etc.      

It's like they put faster cars in faster groups just because the car is fast.  The drivers get it in their head that they're in the ADVANCED run group so they're the best that they can possibly be.   

As to your point about fun, for a DE a slower car would definitively be more fun in my opinion.    

I still go to DE's but try to leach off of member days or small DE groups like DXB seems to have pretty small groups.   

Ironically the Edge Addicts after dark so many people just didn't go out on track once it got dark which I found strange, that was the entire reason I went last year.  

so that was like an entire session of open track at night but my car has headlights so v0v 

 

 

 

 

2019-07-19_EA_COTA_RS_2661.jpeg

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Great post and thread. I was in this same spot a few months ago.  I have owned maybe 8 cars i did DEs in, things like an Elise and several M3s. I built a spec e46 and raced for 3 years but grew tired of the sprint racing and like the strategy involved with endurance. While the spec e46 was fantastic for WRL a rebuilt motor was around $8k and diffs are expensive, not to mention suspension.  I decided in 2019 to sell and buy me a track car that was half the price. I wanted something unique but that was cheap and fast, those 3 really don't exist.  I landed on an RX8 with a Camaro v6. Chassis's are everywhere for under $1500 and motors are $600-800.  PWR is around 11-1 and the rx's chassis is fantastically balanced.

I can add a blower later if the power proves to be too little.  I have one being built now and another that's caged being built for WRL.  

I like motor swapped cars for the uniqueness factor so long as it's an easy to find motor that can take a beating. 

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