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Thundermoose

MSRH CCW Pointers

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I have driven a number of laps at MSRH in both directions.  Unfortunately, I think it's ingrained into me a "fixed" way of driving the track.

I wonder if folks would chime in with their approach to some very specific corners.  I'll be using this track map as my reference.  https://speedsecrets.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/MSR-Houston.pdf

I've also attached a link to one of my sessions.

  1. Turn 2 Carousel - I've always tried to start enter on outside and work my way to inside by midpoint and then inside and track all the way out 4 wheels outside of the exit.  The carousel has two inside curbstones.  I touch the first one, but displace the second one by a car width.  Question:  Is it faster to stay outside on the carousel a bit longer to be able to touch both curbstones and not fully track out so wide?
  2. Turn 3 and 4 Entry to Diamonds Edge - I brake relatively hard before 3 and then can get back on throttle on the short run between 3 and 4.  Question:  Would it be better to brake very lightly all the way past 4 (similar to Oak Tree at VIR if you've run that) vs Off and On throttle and carry more speed through that section?
  3. Turn 7 Sweeper - I try to just lift and turn and then apply a bit of throttle to braking point before bus stop.  Question:  Can this turn be taken flat in an 300 hp car?
  4. Turn 14 Gut Check - I brake or lift then turn then full throttle trying to make it past 15 before braking again and then maintenance throttle through sugar and spice.  Question:  Can 14 be taken flat?  Would it be better to trail brake from 15 to middle of sugar and spice (i.e. no maintenance throttle)?

I am open to pointers any other part of the laps, but these are the ones I have been wrestling with in my mind as I get ready for NASA season opener.  

Thanks in advance.

 

 

 

 

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Guest lobster

I have these same questions 

 

gut check however is flat for me fwiw 

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43 minutes ago, lobster said:

I have these same questions 

 

gut check however is flat for me fwiw 

there's one out of the way.  Thanks.

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I don't have a lot to add here, other than being interested in the answers as well.

On the topic of gut check, I suspect I can take it flat out, I just haven't grown the necessary balls yet. I've never braked there, but have definitely been a serial lifter. I've been working on making those lifts smaller and smaller.

 

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Just wanted to say nice driving man.  Sorry I can't help you out, I'm a novice so I'm hear to just learn what others have to say.  I will say your exhaust setup sounds great though.

I am curious to the answers you get though.  My car was seeing similar speed in the straights but right now I'm too pussy to go that fast lol.  One day I'll grow balls.
 

 

 

 

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1. I think its faster running a little wide on exit. It feels like if you go really wide and have to steer it back to the right you're scrubbing speed. I think...haven't gotten this far...that if your left wheels naturally go over the end of the run off where it blends back into the track is best...or at least requires the least amount of steering inputs.

2. You probably could make T3 with a lift. I think the problem you'll run into is you may not have enough room to brake and turn into T4. I know I could stand to give less brake into T3 and probably one of those spots where a little left foot braking will yield a significant gain.

3. Same thing. Probably can maintain speed through the sweeper but is there enough room to get the car slowed enough for the bus stop? Another spot that I think left foot braking will get a significant time gain. 

4. I know I don't but I think I could stay flat half way between the right/left in gut check. You probably could stay flat until the right side curb. I don't know why but I find the tank very distracting. I'm sure it is faster to trail brake deep but there's the wall. I'd rather give a little up than to go through there...that one time...and something happens.

I gained over a second a lap left foot braking 3 turns at MSR Cresson 3.1. I've since regressed and no longer trust myself. Its not so much being able to left foot brake smoothly...that's the easy part. I've found the hard part is the amount of mental focus that you divert from other things to concentrate on left foot braking. If I were left foot braking into the sweeper, I'd be thinking about it coming out of Diamond's Edge.

 

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Diamonds edge, sweeper, and gut check are all these scary corners that you will be losing grip and dancing and fighting the car.  But guess what?  You're about the bomb the brakes, so everything that the car was doing before doesn't really matter.

in a GT4 going into diamonds edge I lift, get the nose to bite and apex 3 way late. I'm usually carrying too much speed to do anything past some maintanance throttle to keep the back end from washing out. Its sketchy and divey.  And then I bomb the brakes at the appropriate vector and everything is okayl.

Same thing with sweeper.  A bit of a lift to move weight nose to the of the car.  Maintanance throttle to keep the back end from under you.  You're fighting, fighting, and right before the car washes out from under you, bomb the brakes.

Same thing with Gut check. Flat, maybe a lift at the beginning as a speed adjustment, but you really dont need it to plant the nose.  What helps here a bunch (and with all 3 of these) is lifting your eyes so that your brain is less concerned with the unsteadiness and speed of the car under you and more focused on a point on the horizon that you are braking towards. In Gut check the garages work well.

 

Back to carousel- I like to scrub speed with the wheels through T1 and track out pretty much all the way before lifting big to move weight to the front and steering into the first curbing.  That also makes for a big scrub of speed, and now im rotated, facing the first set of curbing, and I can pin it, brushing the first bit of curbing, forgetting the second entirely, because im headed to the exit pavement.

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7 hours ago, strengthrehab said:

Check out this video coaching session I had with a Nelson Mason from Racers360.com. 

 

Good information that may apply. 

 

thanks for sharing very helpful!

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Guest lobster

 

Well I lost a lot of my video and data in the great purge a few months ago.   I didn't mean to delete recent video and data.   I was going to send in my laps/data to racers360

oh well pretty good pointers and assuming the changes I've made to the car will allow me to execute those pointers.    

 

 

 

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On 1/6/2020 at 3:53 PM, Vinnieb said:

Same thing with sweeper.  A bit of a lift to move weight nose to the of the car.  Maintanance throttle to keep the back end from under you.  You're fighting, fighting, and right before the car washes out from under you, bomb the brakes.

If I came out of diamonds edge fast and actually ran through the gear I would be approaching 140 (if not over once I get fast enough).  There is no way lifting only would work.  

Please detail your vehicle specs with your comments to help me understand.  

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39 minutes ago, Talley said:

If I came out of diamonds edge fast and actually ran through the gear I would be approaching 140 (if not over once I get fast enough).  There is no way lifting only would work.  

Please detail your vehicle specs with your comments to help me understand.  

The lift is to minimize weight transfer and keep the back end stable, if you brake into a fast corner you transfer too much weight to the front (if you've got enough grip to make the corner  the extra braking is just ruining the car's balance).

If you aren't properly managing the weight transfer you can dramatically lower the limits of grip and artificially lower the limits of your car. You'll think you're as fast as possible in sections because you're starting to slid but really you're inducing the slip and could carry more speed if you slow down the weight transfer and increase the stability.

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9 hours ago, BRZ4Science said:

The lift is to minimize weight transfer and keep the back end stable, if you brake into a fast corner you transfer too much weight to the front (if you've got enough grip to make the corner  the extra braking is just ruining the car's balance).

If you aren't properly managing the weight transfer you can dramatically lower the limits of grip and artificially lower the limits of your car. You'll think you're as fast as possible in sections because you're starting to slid but really you're inducing the slip and could carry more speed if you slow down the weight transfer and increase the stability.

So my approach is to brake on the straight enough to drop my speed down to around I dunno 100 or so and then maintain throttle through that sweep.  What I'm asking Vinnie and you is at when I was hitting 130mph do I just lift and turn... I don't have the confidence that on 200tw tires my car will stick.  Perhaps when I get to advance to higher groups and can run A7's sure but right now I just don't see the car sticking in that sweep at those speeds with my tires.  Even T3 I was almost at 120 down that straight and just felt I had no choice but to brake slightly (in the straight) then maintenance throttle.

But I understand what you are saying, I'm just thinking it could be a bit different based on your cars power level and grip level.

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2 hours ago, Talley said:

So my approach is to brake on the straight enough to drop my speed down to around I dunno 100 or so and then maintain throttle through that sweep.  What I'm asking Vinnie and you is at when I was hitting 130mph do I just lift and turn... I don't have the confidence that on 200tw tires my car will stick.  Perhaps when I get to advance to higher groups and can run A7's sure but right now I just don't see the car sticking in that sweep at those speeds with my tires.  Even T3 I was almost at 120 down that straight and just felt I had no choice but to brake slightly (in the straight) then maintenance throttle.

But I understand what you are saying, I'm just thinking it could be a bit different based on your cars power level and grip level.

There is a limit to the grip you're tires will have and that limit will set the fastest you can go around a corner of a given radius (it's a physics problem). The sweeper has a very large radius so the speed you can take around it is pretty high ( well over 100mph on street tires). The goal would be to find the limit of grip and ride that limit (so say the tires and surface conditions allow 120mph around the corner, that's what you want to maintain).

Lifting will be better than braking in a high speed corner, since you're trying to minimize weight transfer. The more you decelerate, the more weight is transferred from the rear to the front tires. As you slow, weight transfers to the front tires from the rear, increasing the front tires' grip and decreasing the rear's. If the rear end loses too much grip you get oversteer and could possible spin. Losing front end grip induces understeer and will push the car wide. In a fast corner, you want to have the car neutral or slight understeer on corner entry to keep the car as stable as possible and maximize speed.

I've only got one day at MSR-H (6x30min sessions), so I'm not familiar enough to tell you with confidence just how fast you can take the sweeper (I maxed out around 106mph with my BRZ). But, as a general rule of thumb, the faster the corner the less weight transfer you want to allow. Lifting instead of braking often results in higher speeds and increased stability.

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Thanks for the tips.  Sorry to crash the thread.  Still soaking in a ton of information though so I appreciate the feedback.

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On 1/10/2020 at 11:21 AM, Dennis said:

Also, buy this and read it cover to cover a couple times:  https://www.amazon.com/dp/0760340501/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_U_nklgEb7EBDJCB 

Thanks for the link.  Only because I'm a cheap ass I got it on ebay used for 4.99 🙂

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Speed-Secrets-Professional-Race-Driving-Techniques-by-Bentley-Ross/274149351784?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649

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Talley, my reference is a Scion FRS on Slicks, a Spec Miata, and at the absolute fastest a Cayman GT4.  So yeah, my advice won't really apply at 140 and 3000 pounds...

The way I've seen that tought is to change direction of the car headed to apex of sweeper, threshold brake in a straight line towards the  apex, and then lift off and do your rotation.

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17 hours ago, Vinnieb said:

Talley, my reference is a Scion FRS on Slicks, a Spec Miata, and at the absolute fastest a Cayman GT4.  So yeah, my advice won't really apply at 140 and 3000 pounds...

The way I've seen that tought is to change direction of the car headed to apex of sweeper, threshold brake in a straight line towards the  apex, and then lift off and do your rotation.

Thanks for that information.  Interesting take on that.  I'll have to do some practicing next time out to determine the best approach.  For now I'm concentrating on making the slower corners my priority as I feel there is much more time to be made than through the sweepers.  Also it's 3850lbs and the car typically ran A7 rubber.  I'm on 200TW for now until I advance.  

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Good plan.   when things go wrong going into the sweeper, they can go big wrong.  sideways or backwards over a curb, or a bumpy ride through the mud outside the sweeper.  it ate a bumper on a miata last weekend while I was there.    work on the others- like carousel, launch, and diamonds edge because more speed there results in more speed just about everywhere else.  

carrying speed into the sweeper is only marginal time gain since you're throwing out the anchor 200 yards later for a 50mph turn.  but damn that corner is fun to go in there dancing with brakes and steering to brake as late as possible and not go into bus stop backwards.

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1 hour ago, Matt93SE said:

carrying speed into the sweeper is only marginal time gain since you're throwing out the anchor 200 yards later for a 50mph turn.

Just for interest, I looked back at a bunch of GPS data for a stockish Miata on Bilsteins:

15x7 200TW (205) ~48.5 mph

15x8 200TW (225) ~50.5 mph 

15x9 200TW (225) ~50.5 mph 

15x9 Toyo (205) ~52.5 mph

Pretty interesting, especially the 8” vs 9” wheel on 200TW.  The 9” wheel was ~1.0-1.5s faster, just not on min speed in that corner.

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9 minutes ago, Solo_S14 said:

Just for interest, I looked back at a bunch of GPS data for a stockish Miata on Bilsteins:

15x9 200TW (225) ~50.5 mph 

Pretty interesting, especially the 8” vs 9” wheel on 200TW.  The 9” wheel was ~1.0-1.5s faster, just not on min speed in that corner.

^^ that combo was totally "self braking" in every corner that had a bump - for me at least! I scrubbed at least a seconds worth of tire rub back into my laptimes. Which were lame to start with but I stand fast in my claim 😛

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haha..  and I took a wild ass guess at 50mph just thinking it was too high for 2nd gear and a touch low for 3rd.   must be about 50.

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Damn I took the slowbra through there at 38-40.  I need to pick it up a bunch

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