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N546RV

Question/sorta poll about CW Diamond's Edge

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Been doing my usual post-event Youtube searches for interesting videos (ok fine, videos that have me in them). Ran across Lance in his Fiesta (who I rode with at MSRC earlier this year), and one major difference I noted comparing his driving to mine was his entrance into the sweeper just before Diamond's Edge. We both come to the end of the back straight with relatively similar speed (~110 for him, ~115 for me), but whereas I'm getting in a brake application to scrub off some speed, he doesn't seem to be touching the brakes at all, just lifting and letting the turn-in scrub off speed.

Thinking it through, this does seem like potentially a much faster way through the turn. I don't think I've recently felt that the car is getting wild when I turn in after braking, which tells me that I'm probably overbraking. And it does seem like replacing the braking with an early/slow turn-in might just work.

Basically, I'm just curious what everyone else is doing here. Heavy brake, quick brush brake to set the front, or just a lift? Obviously there will be some variance here depending on what kind of speed you're carrying down the straight.

I think I might make this one of my things to work on next time I run CW.

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This is car, line, tire, and driver dependent.

I can take it flat in my 240SX at about 110mph when I have good tires on the car, but I must brake in the RX7 which is going faster. (don't know how much faster since I don't have any video on my laptop and I'm usually not staring at my data when it's time to turn. ūüėȬ†)

Anyway, it all depends on speed through there and what your car can handle.  I watched Tony Rivera drive his Miata through there without a lift. I tried it and spun. HA!  I tried it a few more times and worked my way up there to being able to get through, but then getting stopped on the other side was VERY hairy.  one of the key issues is that you must be able to trail brake since you're now carrying more speed through the curve and into the braking zone.  In my RX7, I cannot trail brake due to the inside front locking up, and there isn't enough room for me to get the car turned around the bend, then straighten, BRAKE, and make turn in.   therefore I must brake before the turn a little.  it's not much, but I have to some.

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Yeah, the issue of braking after that turn has definitely occurred to me. Right now, at the speed I'm carrying through, the space I have to get the car straight and then brake for the slow part feels "cozy" but not "tight," if that makes any sense. But I do think that if I start carrying much more speed through the sweeper, that zone is going to get interesting. I'd figured, as I think you're alluding, that I'd likely get to a point where I'd have to start braking before getting the car completely straight.

I suppose next time I'll work on braking less and less and see how things go.

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yep, baby steps.  brake a little less and a little less.   consider altering your line just a touch so you straighten the car out earlier after the kink and can get on the brakes sooner but still carry speed through the kink.

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after the apex in the sweeper (110mph+) you're basically done turning until the turn in point for diamonds edge, in my car I brush the brakes to drop from 133 to 110ish and back on the gas after the apex  and then I'm pointing at the yellow sausage curbs on the left side of the track and brake toward those. 

I see  a lot of people driving more on the inside through there and it has never made sense to me, I personally cant make that line fast.    To much steering input after the sweeper, to aggressive of a turn in for diamonds edge.  

 

 

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16 hours ago, N546RV said:

Yeah, the issue of braking after that turn has definitely occurred to me. Right now, at the speed I'm carrying through, the space I have to get the car straight and then brake for the slow part feels "cozy" but not "tight," if that makes any sense. But I do think that if I start carrying much more speed through the sweeper, that zone is going to get interesting. I'd figured, as I think you're alluding, that I'd likely get to a point where I'd have to start braking before getting the car completely straight.

I suppose next time I'll work on braking less and less and see how things go.

I'm in the same boat. A buddy who I play cat and mouse with commented that he thought I was throwing away metric tons of time braking too much setting up for the kink. He said he'd reel me in like a bass consistently there, and before the launch. I have some work to do.  

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24 minutes ago, lobster said:

after the apex in the sweeper (110mph+) you're basically done turning until the turn in point for diamonds edge, in my car I brush the brakes to drop from 133 to 110ish and back on the gas after the apex  and then I'm pointing at the yellow sausage curbs on the left side of the track and brake toward those. 

I see  a lot of people driving more on the inside through there and it has never made sense to me, I personally cant make that line fast.    To much steering input after the sweeper, to aggressive of a turn in for diamonds edge.  

 

 

EXACTLY what I do...just without the 133 mph horsepower induced warp speed part lol...

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lol, well, I'm carrying like 85mph through that kink, pretty sure I can get that up with some work...

I used to go way deep into diamond's edge before turning in, it was a more comfortable line for me when I was first running CW, but was consistently a spot where I seemed to lose time to other cars. This past weekend I finally worked on bringing that line in a bit. I'm still displacing the first apex by half a car or so, but ending up with a much tighter line around the second apex. I also started going down to second again now that I've done some brake pedal "mods" to make heel-toe work better, and that let me get much better drive out of there. Previously I was running in third and doing a fun turbo-lag timing game to get decent drive, but it was always a slow spot.

Actually the pedal work I did helped a lot, I used to be reluctant to upshift if I could avoid it, this past weekend I started hitting fourth gear into the carousel and through gut check. I used to just lift a bit to stay at the top of third to avoid dealing with a downshift.

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Super duper car, tire,  and condition dependent. 

 

This is what test days are for.  Try everything and look at data. As a general rule most of the speed is im the first right hand kink.  Do whatever you can to maintain speed there.  In a spec miata on Hoosiers on a good day during lap 2 of qualifying a half lift is possible but you better have a great feel for your middle pedal because getting slowed down is about to be tough. 

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On 5/23/2019 at 8:42 AM, N546RV said:

lol, well, I'm carrying like 85mph through that kink, pretty sure I can get that up with some work...

I used to go way deep into diamond's edge before turning in, it was a more comfortable line for me when I was first running CW, but was consistently a spot where I seemed to lose time to other cars. This past weekend I finally worked on bringing that line in a bit. I'm still displacing the first apex by half a car or so, but ending up with a much tighter line around the second apex. I also started going down to second again now that I've done some brake pedal "mods" to make heel-toe work better, and that let me get much better drive out of there. Previously I was running in third and doing a fun turbo-lag timing game to get decent drive, but it was always a slow spot.

Actually the pedal work I did helped a lot, I used to be reluctant to upshift if I could avoid it, this past weekend I started hitting fourth gear into the carousel and through gut check. I used to just lift a bit to stay at the top of third to avoid dealing with a downshift.

Do you have a data logger?  If so, this is where comparing data either with yourself (trying different things) or with a quicker buddy is very helpful.

I personally think it's definitely not a hard baking zone, anywhere from a lift to maybe a 3 brake pressure is probably appropriate for your car on RE71r or better.

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11 hours ago, Thundermoose said:

Do you have a data logger?  If so, this is where comparing data either with yourself (trying different things) or with a quicker buddy is very helpful.

I personally think it's definitely not a hard baking zone, anywhere from a lift to maybe a 3 brake pressure is probably appropriate for your car on RE71r or better.

In my case, it's a VERY challenging braking zone.  I carry quite a bit of speed into that turn and need to brake a lot before the kink, then get the car turned, straightened, and then back on the brakes.  my car does not brake well while turning due to the suspension setup (locks inside front if you have much steering angle), so that turn is very tricky.   I can brake WAAY harder going into carousel while the steering is straight and the nose is planted.

so umm yeah.¬† different strokes.¬† ¬†I'm sure I could carry more speed around the kink myself, but being able to stop at the other end is the challenge.¬† I also freely admit I've been out of the seat this direction for a while and need some additional time and another couple sets of tires to get it right.¬† ¬†lock up the right front goign into there, and you draaag that sucker a long way and ruin a slick. (did it last weekend.... ūüė쬆)

 

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Like Matt - I get a LOT of lock up.....probably flat spotted several sets of tires last weekend LOL....first time to ever run CW at Houston. I have the same technique as Matt.

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