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Street tire class NASA

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How is this going to work?  Are they gonna run the 200TW people in HPDE4?   

 

I'm a bit conflicted with the schedule this year.  

ECR is great and exciting 

tho lack of a MSRH CCW event sucks and we get another prohibitively expensive COTA event 

Oh and an oval with like a 2 turn infield where the speed disparity doesn't strike me as a safe environment.  (if the TT groups were split i dunno v0v)  

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So I get the whole "cost cutting" measures that are trying to be implemented, but here's my issue. Almost all "200tw" street tires are cheater tires these days, and are just as good as the RC1 or NT01, and also last just about as long (or short, really). We're also just splitting classes up more and more, to make for even less competition. Yet another point, what about the speed differential between the TT6 guys on street tires, vs the TTU or TT1 drivers on full on slicks. Just seems dangerous to me.

 

All in all, to me it reminds me of the days of racing RC cars when we had a Sportsman, Open, and Pro class for each individual class type. It just seems to me that we're creating an extra class so that mid pack larrys can feel like they have accomplished something.

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You can learn a lot by running street tires on the track.  The tires talk more, and their lower traction ensures that rookie drivers learn from their mistakes at lower speeds.  Race tires, on the other hand, make every thing happen faster and with less warning.  It's one of reasons why DE groups don't allow race tire in the lower run groups.  The drivers just aren't ready.  To sum it up, you learn a lot on streets because they suck on track.

 

To my knowledge, TT has never banned 200TW tires.  But actively encouraging drivers to compete using inadequate tires is asking for trouble.

TT mixes six different classes of cars on track at once, and we do it well, because we can judge another car's abilities just by looking at it.  I drive a Miata.  When I see a white Corvette coming up behind me, I know it's going to be faster on the straights, but possibly sideways in the corner if the rear tires have given up.  And when Lobster sees a Mustang GT, he knows it'll be pretty well matched with his car on the corners and straight, but is likely to get tailhappy and run down a crowd of spectators on the front straight.

We can make these predictions because the model of the car, which we can see, tells us how it'll perform.

Now let's add 200TW tires to the mix.

A Vette comes up behind you in your Miata.  You bought Hoosiers, so you have grip.  But he didn't want to buy good tires, so he's on a set of Nankangs.  You point him by before entering the esses, knowing he'll be long gone.  But he parks it because his tires are crap, and now you've got a 400hp roadblock in front of you.  Your lap just got ruined, or worse.

 

Short of taking a survery in grid, there's no way to know what tires another car's running, so a vehicle's performance can vary wildly your expectations.  And I think that this is going to cause problems.

 

I'm going on longer than I meant to, so here's the executive summary.

 

  • 200TW is a participation trophy for people who didn't adequately prepare their cars for TT.
  • It adds risk, because you can't predict how a car will perform just by looking at it.
  • If you're not ready to drive on 100TW or better, please consider a few more DE events before moving to TT.
  • If you're not able to afford adequate tires, maybe TT's not a good financial decision anyway.  Tires are safety equipment.  Don't cheap out on them.

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Will be interesting to see how many cars run this sub-series.

 

Can you run both on the same day?

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Will be interesting to see how many cars run this sub-series.

 

Can you run both on the same day?

Please don’t. I’m stuck in TT3, so I won’t have a chance if you’re running in the 200 TW class.

 

Edit: I probably won’t be competitive anyways

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Will be interesting to see how many cars run this sub-series.

 

Can you run both on the same day?

 

Nope.  You have to declare you're in the "I Bought Shit Tires" class at the driver's meeting.

You could run Hoosiers on Saturday, and run trailer tires on Sunday, but from what I've read, you can't swap mid-day.

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If 100TW tires are already allowed and slower then 200tw tires, IDK why there had to be another/different class. My 305/35/18 NT01's (Mustang) on 18x11 were 310 dollars and will last a full season. To run street tire, I'd have to up my wheel size to 19's due to the fact that the only 200tw tire that will fit well on an 18x11 wheels is the 615k and the Rival S. Both of which are probably slower than my NT01. The 305 street tires that are "fast" are almost 100 dollars more per tire than the NT01. They are 375 dollars each. I can get Hoosier A7 for 400 that will fit on 18x11 wheels. 

 

As a few people know, I'm considering TT for later this season or next, but I'm kinda stuck in the middle of 2 classes. 

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Also, what is to stop someone from shaving down a set of cheater 200tw tires? Is there going to have a tread depth requirement? Then, if there is a tread depth requirement, that makes costs go back up, as now I have to replace the tires before they're truly worn.

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Please don’t. I’m stuck in TT3, so I won’t have a chance if you’re running in the 200 TW class.

 

Edit: I probably won’t be competitive anyways

Why would you be in TT3? You should be able to easily get to TT4.

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FWIW - I think Ken O was running with a second or two at Hallett with RE71r’s if his times with sticker A7’s.

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Why would you be in TT3? You should be able to easily get to TT4.

My car weighs around 3250 lbs with fuel and driver and probably has around 300 WHP (CPI headers and BW race exhaust).

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My car is around 3250 with fuel and driver and I probably have around 300 WHP (CPI headers and BW race exhaust).

You use avg hp so that will be lower and you get credit if you run skinny tires and credit for no aero. Shoot for TT4.

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FWIW - I think Ken O was running with a second or two at Hallett with RE71r’s if his times with sticker A7’s.

 

Ken O is a magical man beast and he doesnt count. 

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You use avg hp so that will be lower and you get credit if you run skinny tires and credit for no aero. Shoot for TT4.

The top drivers in TX TT4 will likely have better times than the top drivers TT3 this season...unless you and Ken come back...

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Adding 200tw (participation trophies) does not dilute classes at all, but by adding extra drivers increases the likelihood that the class is eligible for contingency. So please sign up scca drivers!

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The top drivers in TX TT4 will likely have better times than the top drivers TT3 this season...unless you and Ken come back...

I left the state so the TT4 hot shoes wouldn’t embarrass me.

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I thought about this class, but I think I'll just wait a year and prepare for TT3 or just say screw it and continue in DE. I've stressed enough about what to do, lol. 

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The SCCA Time Trials currently limit most classes to 200tw tires (that's the cutoff, so you're either 200tw or on slicks).

 

RE71r's are very fast, but for the best performance you're only going to run them for 3-4 laps at a time to keep them from overheating/in the optimal performance range. You can lap an RE71r but you'll have to be running extra high pressures and you will see a performance falloff after 3-4 laps.

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Since we kinda came up with this idea, let me try to better explain the reasoning behind this 200TW sub-class.  If you haven't read the whole press release, this really does answer all of these questions...

 

Press Release: https://nasatx.com/nasa-texas-and-vorshlag-announce-street-tire-time-trial-championship/

 

1. The 200TW sub-classes will run in the same TT1-TT6 classes. Hopefully any new NASA TT entrants (both from other TT series and/or some "long lost" NASA TT bois that got tired of playing the Hoosier game) will join and enlarge existing classes. More chances for Hoosier bois to win tires.

 

2. These 200TW cars will run in the same TT classes in the same run group (up until we have such a large TT group that it has to be split into 2 groups?)

 

3. There is a large difference in performance and life between a Hoosier and 200TW tire...  people trying to equate an RE-71R to a 100TW race tire are stretching the laws physics.

 

100TW TIRE IS FASTER THAN 200TW

 

Going from 340 to 200 to 40 treadwear is a big jump in performance and grip. Sure, the UTQG number isn't a hard and fast, scientifically verifiable, gov't regulated number. But it does equate to tire life to a degree and tire makers are hesitant to throw "200" on an obvious race tire. There are tread life warranties sometimes tied to these TW numbers, so they do have some skin in the game.

 

bfg-tire-lineup-L.jpg

 

I know its popular for every HPDE champion to chime in with stories of "cheater" 200TW tires that don't last 3 seconds. That's just not true. ;)

 

 

Eagle%20F1%20Supercar%203R%2030530ZR19-L

 

The latest slate of "super tires" like the Eagle F1 Supercar 3R that comes on the ZL1 1LE are 100TW. They wear rather quickly (2-3 weekends) but have the grip to match. Have taken laps at COTA on these and then jumped in my own car on 305 RE-71Rs, and the 3R feels much more like an R-compound. Its FAST.

 

BridgestoneRE71R-285-30-18-S.jpgHankookRS4-285-35-18-S.jpg

 

The RE-71R is so "dominant" in some autocross classes that it has this "overdog" status. Its quick, to be sure, but its no 3R. I've had customers swear the Hankook R-S4 was as fast on a road course, just haven't been able to test these back to back yet.

 

DSCN1514-L.jpg

 

I spent the 2018 season running a 305/30/19 RE-71R set on my 3855 pound "TT3" car. Its not even remotely prepped for the class and is 2-3 seconds off the pace of our old TT3 Mustang. This car is being run for development testing of parts we are making and/or selling, as well as to get some data on A7 vs 200TW data.

 

79657251-978A8557-L.jpg

 

I was switching back and forth between 315/30/19 Hoosier A7s and 305/30/19 RE-71Rs. I ran them back-to-back some days as well.

 

PB241992-L.jpg

 

Wear on the A7s after 3 "weekends". I really ran these at NASA Nationals  (6 or 7 sessions), 4 sessions at NASA @ NOLA, and one session at MSR-Cresson. One front tire corded on my 4th session during the NOLA weekend, but I ran them for another 7 laps at Cresson and the tread rubber was starting to peel off both front tires.

 

P7A_2204-L.jpg

 

The A7 switches on in lap 1 for me and falls off quickly every lap thereafter. Lots of people say A7s suck in the wet, but I didn't see that. Even with a visible spray off the tires they were still faster in the wet than the RE-71Rs at COTA. Only cars that passed me in the wet sessions at TT Nats were on Hoosier H20 or Conti Wets.

 

IMG_0727-L.jpg

 

This is the wear on the RE-71R after 9 weekends. The fronts still have life in them (they spent more of their time on the rear). I run these at 28psi cold / 33-34 psi hot on a 3855 pound car. They "switch on" in 1-2 laps and "fall off" a bit for me after 6-8 laps. Sometimes I've set my fastest lap on lap 5 or 6 tho. 8 or 9 laps at MSR is edging up on 15 minutes, so... that's a whole session.

 

IMG_0729-L.jpg

 

The "rears" are pretty hammered, but they were still putting in competitive times at an SCCA Time Trial, and the data looked decent.

 

measures-graph-A7vsRE71R-XL.jpg

 

There is a distinct difference in grip levels, and the A7s were much easier to drive (more forward bite, more lateral) on the MSR 1.7 CCW test day where I ran them back to back. Lap time difference of almost 1 second, too.

 

DSC_8949-L.jpg

 

Shaving 200TW tires is a lose-lose proposition, especially for a "Trophy only" sub-class like this. ;) Of course people will SELL you this "Service", but on a 7/32" thick tread with low void ratio its not going to do anything but shorten the lifespan of your tires. Sure, 20 years ago when every street tire came with 11/32" and had huge areas of tread void, there could be some tread squirm that shaving to 4-5/32" would cure. Only the most die hard autocrossers did it back then and few if any do today. And this ain't autocross.

 

Terry-Fair-2018-Ford-Mustang-DriveOPTIMA

 

So I'm more than a little skeptical of the "RE-71Rs are race tires!" claims. Entire series run 200TW tires, and the RE-71R is "in the hunt" but not dominate in places like Optima (Rival-S and Falken are competitive, too). But sure - the 60-100TW Toyo and Nitto R-compounds aren't any faster. They are just old ass tire designs. The Toyo R888 isn't much changed from their 1993 era RA1 carcass. I cannot take data from an R888 or NT-01 all too seriously in 2019 and beyond. They need to play catchup.

 

Cheers,

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There are so many apples to bowling balls comparisons here that I do not have time to sit down and tell you why you are wrong.

 

Back to making money and not posting novels on internet forums.

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Will be interesting to see how many cars run this sub-series.

 

Can you run both on the same day?

 

No, that isn't allowed, at least not for the trophies. It would be too hard to police. As the press release states - the driver has to "Declare" in the morning if they want to run the 200TW sub-class.

 

Of course nobody is stopping you from running Hoosiers in some sessions and 200TW in others, for practice or "track time". Just not eligible to win BOTH the normal TT trophies and the 200TW trophies.

 

Now some folks might run Hoosiers on Day 1 and 200TW on Day 2. That's allowed, and I might in fact do that at some events - to show the differences in the tires.

 

 

So I get the whole "cost cutting" measures that are trying to be implemented, but here's my issue. Almost all "200tw" street tires are cheater tires these days, and are just as good as the RC1 or NT01, and also last just about as long (or short, really). We're also just splitting classes up more and more, to make for even less competition. Yet another point, what about the speed differential between the TT6 guys on street tires, vs the TTU or TT1 drivers on full on slicks. Just seems dangerous to me.

 

All in all, to me it reminds me of the days of racing RC cars when we had a Sportsman, Open, and Pro class for each individual class type. It just seems to me that we're creating an extra class so that mid pack larrys can feel like they have accomplished something.

 

Dangerous? Really? We have some of the biggest disparities in lap times in the NASA Time Trial groups already. I've been on track with a TT3 car doing 160 mph into a corner where a TT guy had a rental Fiat500 on 400 treadwear tires (its allowed) where he was doing 80 mph in the same entry. He told me that when I blew by him at 2x the speed he never even saw me coming, but I saw him and adjusted for the much slower car. Nobody died or caught on fire or lost their birthday. ;)

 

 

There are so many apples to bowling balls comparisons here that I do not have time to sit down and tell you why you are wrong.

 

Back to making money and not posting novels on internet forums.

 

LOL, well just be that way then. ;) Look, this is an experiment meant to bring in more TT folks and to lower tire costs, without "splitting up classes" like you posted above (your inaccuracies out number my bowling balls). In Texas Region. Since you are in Indianapolis and racing a '87 BMW 535is, I don't think you need to worry. :P

 

 

 

You can learn a lot by running street tires on the track.  The tires talk more, and their lower traction ensures that rookie drivers learn from their mistakes at lower speeds.  Race tires, on the other hand, make every thing happen faster and with less warning.  It's one of reasons why DE groups don't allow race tire in the lower run groups.  The drivers just aren't ready.  To sum it up, you learn a lot on streets because they suck on track.

 

To my knowledge, TT has never banned 200TW tires.  But actively encouraging drivers to compete using inadequate tires is asking for trouble.

 

TT mixes six different classes of cars on track at once, and we do it well, because we can judge another car's abilities just by looking at it.  I drive a Miata.  When I see a white Corvette coming up behind me, I know it's going to be faster on the straights, but possibly sideways in the corner if the rear tires have given up.  And when Lobster sees a Mustang GT, he knows it'll be pretty well matched with his car on the corners and straight, but is likely to get tailhappy and run down a crowd of spectators on the front straight.

 

We can make these predictions because the model of the car, which we can see, tells us how it'll perform.

 

Now let's add 200TW tires to the mix.

 

A Vette comes up behind you in your Miata.  You bought Hoosiers, so you have grip.  But he didn't want to buy good tires, so he's on a set of Nankangs.  You point him by before entering the esses, knowing he'll be long gone.  But he parks it because his tires are crap, and now you've got a 400hp roadblock in front of you.  Your lap just got ruined, or worse.

 

Short of taking a survery in grid, there's no way to know what tires another car's running, so a vehicle's performance can vary wildly your expectations.  And I think that this is going to cause problems.

 

I'm going on longer than I meant to, so here's the executive summary.

 

  • 200TW is a participation trophy for people who didn't adequately prepare their cars for TT.
  • It adds risk, because you can't predict how a car will perform just by looking at it.
  • If you're not ready to drive on 100TW or better, please consider a few more DE events before moving to TT.
  • If you're not able to afford adequate tires, maybe TT's not a good financial decision anyway.  Tires are safety equipment.  Don't cheap out on them.

 

 

Look, people already run 200TW in NASA TT. There are even TT bonuses/modifiers for 100TW compounds, just nothing that addresses the next step up: 200TW.

 

I would argue that running Hoosiers makes a car EASIER to drive. I can tell you, for me an A7 is easier to drive HARD than a 200TW tire. I've done back-to-back sessions on RE-71R and A7s, and the A7s could be pushed hard AF with less drama. So I contend that you have overblown this difference, and maybe even have it backwards.

 

Sure, the GRIP LEVELS (and cornering speeds) are higher on Hoosiers, and thus there is a chance for more danger if you go off. The "twitchiness" factor? I just don't see it compared to the best/modern 200TW tires.

 

And yes, 200TW tires have more audible feedback, which is another reason why they are better for newer track drivers. They also LAST A LOT LONGER, so that new folks can get a lot more SEAT TIME. The much promised "driver mod" is easier to get to on tires that last 2-4 times longer.  And racers on a budget (ie: everyone) can afford to do more events when their tire budgets are less.

 

hoosier-3153019-price-L.jpg

 

At the beginning of the 2018 season I paid $2000 for a set of A7s and $1450 for a set of RE-71Rs. The A7s corded in less than 2 weekends. The RE-71Rs are still going after NINE. Tire costs are the highest costs for most TT competitors. If there's something to shoot for (sub-class trophies and championships), how is this a bad thing?

 

_DSF2888-S.jpg10348837_10152470591701092_2731094128996

 

And in case you haven't noticed there are a LOT of classes, categories and entire racing organizations that are built around 200TW tires. Optima. GTA. Gridlife, SCCA TT. Redline Time Attack. Endurance series like WRL, Champ, Lemons, AER, and now NASA endurance events. All have classes or categories restricted to 200TW tires. Those "unpredictable" street tires magically don't cause drivers to spontaneously combust or spin or anything weird. They outnumber us...

 

P7A_1298-L.jpg

 

And if you think there isn't already a HUGE lap time / experience level / prep level / grip level disparity among cars on a NASA TT grid, you might need to come to some more events. The difference in the fastest TTU car to the slowest TT5/6 car is going to be YUGE. The speed differential from my TT3 car to this TT5 car above was massive. But its OK... its what we have with the most diverse run group at a NASA weekend. :)

 

42058844_10100721834071211_9194381660441

 

We saw some massive lap speed differentials even at NASA Nationals, even from "TT1" cars. Some "faster class" folks are slower than TT5 cars, yet had full aero and A7s. There are always going to be lap time differentials, but with TT gridding by lap time, the first few laps are clear and there are few "surprises" when you catch the back of the grid. 

 

Cheers,

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Heck, why not give it a chance? I think ultimately it will encourage more participation in TT, which means more contingency, and more people that end up in ST doing actual racing.

 

Worst case everyone hates it and we declare it a failed experiment, but I honestly think we'll have fun with it.

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Heck, why not give it a chance? I think ultimately it will encourage more participation in TT, which means more contingency, and more people that end up in ST doing actual racing.

 

Worst case everyone hates it and we declare it a failed experiment, but I honestly think we'll have fun with it.

 

 

 

I'm willing to give it a whirl, im on a mission to beat @@kfennell at least one event this season so no 200tw for me.   Though I can't say ill run the entire TT season this go as im prepping the car for ST because im an idiot.    

 

 

 

also lol @@Vorshlag-Fair good ol' leo alexander (TT2 audi in your pic) in between forgetting my transponder, dealing with traffic and then the car breaking he cost me my only real good lap.    fuck that guy him and other terry.  

 

They should start a 0TW series where the only way to win is to not participate. 

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To expand, I think specifically it will attract:

 

-Newcomers to TT, who don't want to pony up for R-comps but still want to compare lap times to similar cars

-People that drive their car to the track and don't bring a second set of wheels

-WRL cars that run 200TW, for testing or to just get seat time

 

And to be honest, back in my more economical TT days, I was running 200 TW tires - and ended up on the podium sometimes to boot! Plus you have the eternal excuse of "I'm on street tires LOL!"

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