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STANG KILLA SS

TWS guy, first time at Cresson: Advice?

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Had another track day at MSR a couple weeks ago.


before heading out, i got a more aggressive alignment. -3.3*F / -1.6*R camber. also .1* of toe OUT per side on the rear, this ended up being a big mistake. very twitchy/unstable and on exits on power, i could actually feel the rear of the car being pulled towards the outside by the outside wheel. no good. camber felt pretty good, although i did feel a bit less grip on the rear.

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on the last session of the day, on the 2nd lap i ended up setting a new Fastest lap record for myself on some very expired tires. i know the cars got alot more in it. i just have to learn this new track. i did get better at T6 which has been my nemesis. also started going deeper into T2


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vid of new fastest lap




this guy also showed up. brand new GT4 AMG. unfortunately he ended up putting it in a muddy ditch, costing us all an hour of track time as they extracted the car.

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at the end of the last session as the sun was going down, had a great few laps with a 4 door bmw. despite his PB lap being nearly 3 seconds faster than me! but on this day, both our tires were TOAST, our cars were very evenly matched, and we were both sliding everywhere to stay near each other. was a TON of fun, until i lost all brakes, went straight to the floor, all the hard laps had boiled the brake fluid. day was done. exhaust also came off the rear hanger some time during this run. still a blast. unfortunately my gopro went dead on grid and i only have the helmet cam footage.

 

also my first trip with my new tow rig, picked up a '16 GC Overland w/ Hemi & 4x4
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Jesus. It's like watching one of my track vids on fast forward.

Guessing this was Keith, or is it someone else in his SR8?

Went to the native vid and yup, KV.

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FINALLY got back to the track after a 3 month wait for the full 3.1 track to be available. this one was with the Porsche club, ive never run with them before. huge organization, most cars ive ever seen there too.

also got a bunch of "upgrades" (more on that later) and despite the old change 1 thing at a time adage, i changed everything at once. :D



stock calipers to wilwoods
rubber lines to braided stainless
Motul 600 to Castrol SRB
Centric rotors to DBA
Raybestos ST-43 front pads to Hawk DTC-60
stock rear pads to DTC-30
stock shocks to DRM tuned Bilsteins



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also went from BFG Rival S(200TW) to Toyo R888R(100TW) same 315/335 sizes. although the Toyos appear to run a bit wider.
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also re did the rear toe, had been following the pfadt corvette track alignment guide which for some reason recommends toe out on the rear. car has been sorta unstable so we changed it to a more traditional 3/16" toe in on the rear.
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Tires:
should have been way stickier. they proved quite the opposite. they were audibly louder, more squealing communication which i liked. but grip appeared to be way down. i was pushing/understeering and finding the limits alot. which i rarely do with the Rivals. it was quite noticeable. temps were 40 in the morning working up to 59 in the afternoon. full sunshine, no clouds all day. i tried everything from 31-39 hot. all had less grip. im hoping it was the cooler temps? or are the "harder" Rivals superior? also in the pits on cold tires first session (tires were 40 degrees) thats the first time ive EVERY felt tires feel like ice. i was sliding and spinning in the pits, just moving the car at idle.




Brakes:
also a let down. pretty much EVERYTHING was upgraded here. just didnt seem to have great braking. was missing alot of apexes and just not stoping well at all. like stock brakes/pads. worse at times. then i started noticing on slower corners were i didnt have to downshift the brakes were just OK. right near my old setup, maybe touch below. ie decent in low rpm situations. but on faster corners, when i had to down shift, as soon as i would down shift, the rpms would come way up the pedal would push back at me, reducing the braking clamping to almost nothing. was REALLY blowing apexes then. just had no stoping power. i later realized this and waited to down shift until nearly all my braking was done, and the rpms/speed was lower, this helped. but it delayed my turn in, and ability to go somewhat deep really bad. costing me time. i especially didnt like what it did to my turn in timing.


also noticed bad vibrations in the early two morning sessions. which ive ALWAYS fought with this car. i would have bad "warped" rotor vibrations in just 1 or 2 days. these were brand new and did it in 1-2 sessions. bad. but then in warmer afternoon sessions it actually went away some how. like all of it. im running full race spindle ducts with scoops in the fog light holes.
pedal was very firm with little feel/feedback as well.


really disappointed in new brakes so far.



shocks:
didnt notice much difference here. i particularly bought these for a rough crest on the back stretch were the two halves of the track meet. its rough from all the angle changes from the jumper road. plus im right in my peak power there, and its a crest so the car gets light, my goal someday is to be able to take that flat out, no lift. these seemed to help little with that.




couple cool cars, what appeared to be a 60s can am car w/o the body
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never seen an Atom in person. looked brand new.
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was able to get check ride from advanced instructor and got moved up. i was running everyone over in blue group. got to yellow and it was great (what i ran in at TWS) it was the first time ive ever run two entire sessions without having traffic slow me up. never saw anyone. was SO nice.  was able to run 4 back to back 2:26 in last session. super consistent.

but a full second off my personal best, despite all the new/better/faster parts.



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All of the cheater AX tires are better then all of the "R comp" tires, and it's not even close according to those in the know. 

 

Good news is the Toyo's wont last long on that car and you can try something else soon. 

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All of the cheater AX tires are better then all of the "R comp" tires, and it's not even close according to those in the know. 

 

Good news is the Toyo's wont last long on that car and you can try something else soon. 

 

I've been using NT01's for a while. Which cheater AX tires are you talking about specifically? I'd like to be in the know and check to see if they're available in the sizes I want.

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I've been using NT01's for a while. Which cheater AX tires are you talking about specifically? I'd like to be in the know and check to see if they're available in the sizes I want.

 

The 'cheater tires' are the Bridgestone RE71r's (they don't make them in Corvette sizes) and the BFG Rival S 1.5 (they come in bigger sizes than the stones). They aren't faster than a 100tw but they aren't too far behind. The autox tires have narrower optimal temperature ranges and they heat up faster than most of the 100tw options. The Re71r is at it's peak quickly but fades fast (you get 3 laps to set a flier then they slow noticeably).

 

I really like the Hankook RS4 for a track tire, I've got my RE71r's for autox but I don't run them at the track (I wore out a sticker set over one weekend of Time Trials last year and haven't run them at the track since). I just got a fourth set of wheels, I was thinking of mounting some NT01's or similar 100tw tire to try them out. If I do, I could compare NT01's, RE71r's, and RS4's back to back. 

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RE-71R

 they dont make them in big boy sizes :(

 

the tires dont bother me much, i know i can fix them by going back to Rival S

 

but the brake issues have me baffled. such odd symtoms.

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Interestingly, Terry over at Vorshlag has had good long lasting results with the RE-71R on his Mustang TT car.  I don't want to speak for him but I think it comes down to zero street miles heat cycles + lots of camber + pressure management. I think he has blogged about it, maybe even on his thread here on TJ.

 

Anyway, doesn't help you since you need a size they don't come in anyway.

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Interestingly, Terry over at Vorshlag has had good long lasting results with the RE-71R on his Mustang TT car.  I don't want to speak for him but I think it comes down to zero street miles heat cycles + lots of camber + pressure management. I think he has blogged about it, maybe even on his thread here on TJ.

 

Anyway, doesn't help you since you need a size they don't come in anyway.

 

He's running 305/30/19's square.  I just mounted that same size on 19x11 and 19x12's - same as the GM boys have the last couple of years on the CAM-C cars at Nationals.  Going to try them out either at TNIA on 3/19 1.7 CCW or with my son at TDE 3.1 3/23-24 later this month.  Bought them to enter the SCCA TT's in January that did not pan out...

 

I have seen some Vette guys running them.  They are not a wide running tire.  My Goodyear 305 20's and 19's are about 10mm (tread and section) wider on an 11" rim also.  I am considering buying a custom 18x11 & 12" combo and trying the Rival S's if I don't like how quickly the RE71R's fall off.  I, too, have been following Vorshlag's info as he seems to like them decently for extended sessions.

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He's running 305/30/19's square.  I just mounted that same size on 19x11 and 19x12's - same as the GM boys have the last couple of years on the CAM-C cars at Nationals.  Going to try them out either at TNIA on 3/19 1.7 CCW or with my son at TDE 3.1 3/23-24 later this month.  Bought them to enter the SCCA TT's in January that did not pan out...

 

I have seen some Vette guys running them.  They are not a wide running tire.  My Goodyear 305 20's and 19's are about 10mm (tread and section) wider on an 11" rim also.  I am considering buying a custom 18x11 & 12" combo and trying the Rival S's if I don't like how quickly the RE71R's fall off.  I, too, have been following Vorshlag's info as he seems to like them decently for extended sessions.

 

I've got the same size mounted up to 19x11's.  Mine will probably last forever at my current pace :D

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Wait until you get a track turd lodged under your throttle stop...makes for an interesting race!!!

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lol i had that happen on my first camaro (on the street) was in high school and just had a tune up done (carbed) well the shop let one of the plug wires wild, and it worked its way up to the throttle linkage. stuck at 50% throttle. that was fun. got it stoped somehow and got my first lesson in what dieseling was. 

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On ‎3‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 1:46 PM, KevinDB said:

Interestingly, Terry over at Vorshlag has had good long lasting results with the RE-71R on his Mustang TT car.  I don't want to speak for him but I think it comes down to zero street miles heat cycles + lots of camber + pressure management. I think he has blogged about it, maybe even on his thread here on TJ.

 

Anyway, doesn't help you since you need a size they don't come in anyway.

I would think that TT mentality (hit it and quit it only a few laps per session) has a bunch to do with it.

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14 minutes ago, El_Tortuga said:

I would think that TT mentality (hit it and quit it only a few laps per session) has a bunch to do with it.

Terry doesn't go and hot lap at a TT, he does a warm-up lap then about 3 laps then either comes into hot pits or does another cool-down lap. So he's only doing half or fewer hot laps during a session, and he doesn't do all the sessions.

If you're pushing for an entire session, you start burning through the RE's which start to get greasy after 3-4 hot laps. If you drive a momentum car, pulling off means that you take a full lap or sometimes 2 laps to get back to speed instead of half a lap for a horsepower car. I can't afford to waste laps babying finicky tires, and I especially don't want to deal with that on a non-competitive trackday (especially on the 3.1 where you're only getting 5-6 hot laps during a session anyway, at least there I'm good to go by the start/finish).

The RE's also don't like too much slip angle, so your driving style really affect how long they last. I prefer Hankook RS4's that'll work for a full session and last 12-15 events. I might be giving up 0.5-1s but I've got more opportunity to hit a good lap and a higher probability to get a fast lap for the TT. 

The RE71r is a great tire, if you want to try a set go for it. Maybe they'll work for you or maybe you'll burn through them in a weekend, you won't know for sure until you try.

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49 minutes ago, BRZ4Science said:

Terry doesn't go and hot lap at a TT, he does a warm-up lap then about 3 laps then either comes into hot pits or does another cool-down lap. So he's only doing half or fewer hot laps during a session, and he doesn't do all the sessions.

If you're pushing for an entire session, you start burning through the RE's which start to get greasy after 3-4 hot laps. If you drive a momentum car, pulling off means that you take a full lap or sometimes 2 laps to get back to speed instead of half a lap for a horsepower car. I can't afford to waste laps babying finicky tires, and I especially don't want to deal with that on a non-competitive trackday (especially on the 3.1 where you're only getting 5-6 hot laps during a session anyway, at least there I'm good to go by the start/finish).

The RE's also don't like too much slip angle, so your driving style really affect how long they last. I prefer Hankook RS4's that'll work for a full session and last 12-15 events. I might be giving up 0.5-1s but I've got more opportunity to hit a good lap and a higher probability to get a fast lap for the TT. 

The RE71r is a great tire, if you want to try a set go for it. Maybe they'll work for you or maybe you'll burn through them in a weekend, you won't know for sure until you try.

Gah, I wanted to buy RS4's when I was shopping but they were out of stock everywhere.  I'm in a heavy car and like to overdrive it so I'll probably trash my RE71R pretty quick. Haven't had a chance to run them yet. 

I am more interested in TT anyway (with this car), but for now need to burn a lot of laps to get seat time etc.  

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29 minutes ago, KevinDB said:

Gah, I wanted to buy RS4's when I was shopping but they were out of stock everywhere.  I'm in a heavy car and like to overdrive it so I'll probably trash my RE71R pretty quick. Haven't had a chance to run them yet. 

I am more interested in TT anyway (with this car), but for now need to burn a lot of laps to get seat time etc.  

Painful truth about the heavyweight's appetite for tires and brakes. Good call to bias your choice to # of laps.

Check RS-4s now. Ordered a new set a month or two ago and they were delivered last Monday. Have done 16 days/600 laps with current set and have probably 6+ days  left on them. Still resetting PBs too so they haven't slowed down much. I've been getting pretty aggressive about sliding the car around but did have maybe 5 or so rain days too. For comparison was getting 8-10 days out of 615K+ and 12ish days out of 615Ks. 4.5 days out of set of Rival-$ and honestly wasn't driving the car near as hard as I currently am. Ouch.

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went back to the track monday


picked up a new Anderson Composites hood
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shaved about 9 lbs. but i really bought it for the cooling, and reducing front end lift.
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few cool cars there
Mike Dusold was there with his twin turbo '67 from the Optima Street car series
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also a 488 GT3 prewrap. a AMG GT3 also rolled by in the same all white, but i couldnt grab a pic fast enough
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Thanks to a tip from Sam Strano i swaped my OEM rear pads back on and it fixed my braking issue! (pedal push back on downshifts) now i find myself needing a bit more braking power, but i think i can get there.



dispite the horrible grip of the Toyo R888R, ive been working on a few corners and learning the track better, and was able to set a new PB.

my previous PB was a 2:25.7, did back to back 2:24.9s! still lots to learn but happy with the improvement, especially on these terrible tires.



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3 minutes ago, STANG KILLA SS said:

dispite the horrible grip of the Toyo R888R, ive been working on a few corners and learning the track better, and was able to set a new PB.

my previous PB was a 2:25.7, did back to back 2:24.9s! still lots to learn but happy with the improvement, especially on these terrible tires.

 

Wow! That's pretty great time there considering you're on what is a glorified all season tire. Nice job 👍

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Guest lobster

Yah I would consider R888R's for maybe a rain tire but for actual grip I would get the superior NT01         

8 minutes ago, Boostedtaco said:

 

Wow! That's pretty great time there considering you're on what is a glorified all season tire. Nice job 👍

ETA: 

Watching your video maybe im not seeing it but in a few sections of the track (big bend & rattlesnake mainly) you slow way way way way way down was there something on the track like oil or something? 

 

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i dont trust these tires. i was over slowing alot.

also my brakes were just back to working, but werent quite enough so i was gun shy of them too.

but mostly just still learning. only my 7th time to cresson.

i think those are all of my excuses!

any other help and tips would be greatly appreciated!

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wait i have another excuse!

what you may be hearing at the top of rattle snake is me staying in 3rd. the low rpms may make it seem im going slower than i am.

im squeeling tires in side load in both directions at the top of rattlesnake.

ive tried second, but then i have to imidiate short shift back to 3rd before the off camber. all of my fastest laps have happened on laps i stayed in 3rd. so ive been sticking with that on this last outing.

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