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Forced Induction ideas and recommendations... and no flaming


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#21
Rev

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Just to play devils advocate here: save yourself the trouble. pickup an S2000 ;)


Ha! I'd LOVE to, and it is definitely on the list of future goals. BUT I need projects. As much as I love track time, it's 6 weekends a year at best due to family and work commitments. I make it through the down times by having fun projects to do in the evenings when the kids go to bed... and that takes money for parts! An S2000 would burn all my mod money. Maybe one day my mod budget will increase and then I'll start drinking the S2000 Kool-Aid ;-)

That said, I will admit that as I was driving home a couple weeks ago, I saw an older woman pulling out of a nearby neighborhood in what appeared to be a mint red 2nd gen S2000. I hit the brakes with the intention of turning around, following her, and then telling her that if she ever wants to sell I'd be interested. Then I realized it might be taboo to follow an older woman home ;-) I'm still keeping my eye out for that car everyday on the way home.

#22
Rev

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I personally feel that turbo would be the more reliable option. BorgWarner products are amazing... I was all about Rotrex untill I read about all the shaft issues.

 

Those issues are definitely concerning, but they seem to be far more frequent on the Honda installs than on Miatas from what I've read. I've no idea why that is. Biggest issue on the Miata seems to be excessive belt wear due to alignment issues.

 

I actually had a friend over at BW quote me a great price for that turbo and almost went for it. Such a well engineered product. But when I added everything up, it was still as expensive as the TDR Rotrex kit and, from what I've seen, more prone to heat issues and more difficult for the DIYer to get right. But I will keep the BW option in mind. 



#23
Fast2.0L

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I have a turbo Mk1 GTI that I tracked several times. As everyone said heat is hard to manage. In addition to everything above.

Inconel studs and locking hardware
Run low boost for the turbo and size the exhaust housing bigger for track use (less torque and lower heat)
Ceramic coat the exhaust housing and downpipe
Use mild steel or inconel for the downpipe with flex sections, stainless always cracks.
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#24
Fast2.0L

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Forgot the biggest one, a turbo blanket. Literally saved my car when I put one on.

#25
marco8

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SC Miata NA track user last 4+ years, 20+ track days year. Here is my experience and recommendations.

Heat is not an issue if you have a good setup: 1)bigger radiator 2)good ducting 3)oil cooler 4)hood venting 5)ethanol, more fuel cooling and lower egt 6)accurate temp reading-oil temp sensor recommend

Consider reroute but didn't need, and the above provides more cooling for the buck.

Reliability is reasonable, but keep in mind that more power = more wear and tear. Making more hp is easy but comes at a cost, shorter engine life / sooner rebuilds.

I have chosen to go lower boost 9psi and ethanol to increase engine life, but still make power. Motors are a consumable, and a fresh motor with my setup will go approx 100hrs ( on track) before rebuild. More boost expect lifespan to shorten.

Random points of wisdom 1)power is fun, satisfying and different, but might hamper your skills development (easy to correct a badly executed corner with extra torque down the straight). Miatas are momentum cars and FI can compensate for poor execution. 2)megasquirt is a must 3)systems are more complex so expect to invest more time in learning. 4)Rotrex vs roots (I use roots style). Roots been around forever and is the still the choice for top performance cars e.g. ls7, Shelby etc. 5)boost is a temptress, and you will fight the urge to add more. 6)listen to Hornetball

Good luck. PM if you want to discuss realtime

#26
hornetball

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Really want to break the 2 minute mark just for the fun of it!

 

FWIW, sub-2:00 is reachable with a normally aspirated Miata if it's well-setup and well-driven.

 

That said, if you're just into tinkering and learning (a lot of us are), then by all means . . . .  And document it too, we like car pictures and build threads are a great historical archive for your car.


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Silver 90 1.6L Turbo Miata (Greddy + MSPNP, Cowl Induction, FCM) (Build Thread)
Red 95 1.8 Miata (949 Racing 95R Project Emulation) (Build Thread)


#27
robertcope

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I've run a 1:56 with a stock motor making 128hp or so. That was with aero, though.

Robert B. Cope

 

#53 - 2003 Jetta (red)
#53 - 1999 Miata (silver) aka GONK: "She may not look like much, but she's got it where it counts, kid. I've made a lot of special modifications myself."
#94 - 2001 S2000 (red) aka Crisis

#XX - 1992 NSX (red)


#28
Rev

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FWIW, sub-2:00 is reachable with a normally aspirated Miata if it's well-setup and well-driven.

 

That said, if you're just into tinkering and learning (a lot of us are), then by all means . . . .  And document it too, we like car pictures and build threads are a great historical archive for your car.

 

This made me laugh! Yes, "well-driven" is the hang-up :-) I'm getting faster and better, but sub-2 is still 5 seconds away. My car is IMO close to ideally set up for a car that is also fully street driven, which limits my aero, max camber, ride height, and adds weight (AC, PS). I think most of the gain will be found in my continued skill development. Unfortunately, it's hard to develop skills fast when I can only make 5-6 track events a year, and most of those are 1 day only. That said, I count myself very fortunate to have gotten all the seat time I have gotten to this point. I never thought I'd have the time or money to make it past blue run group!  



#29
cabowabo

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I think most of the gain will be found in my continued skill development. Unfortunately, it's hard to develop skills fast when I can only make 5-6 track events a year, and most of those are 1 day only. 

 

That's where sim racing comes in, assuming you have time/budget for it and also enjoy it.



#30
Rev

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That's where sim racing comes in, assuming you have time/budget for it and also enjoy it.

 

I have tried it a bit and enjoyed it, but haven't taken the full plunge. My biggest reservation is that unless you spend serious coin you don't get any force feedback other than in the wheel. From my time on track it feels like my "butt sensor" is almost as important as my eyes. I can feel the car is going over the limit before I can see it's going over the limit. From what I've heard from others, SIM racing seems to be a great way to learn a new track, refine your line, and possibly even learn some wheel-to-wheel dynamics (assuming you have a 3 screen or VR setup). But it doesn't seem like a great way to learn the advanced car control that would get me a few more seconds. But I could be wrong! I probably need to try out some higher-end setups than the single-screen, G-27 rig I have.



#31
Shuka

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You might also look into water/meth or just plain water injection. Liquid intercooling.


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#32
cabowabo

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I have tried it a bit and enjoyed it, but haven't taken the full plunge. My biggest reservation is that unless you spend serious coin you don't get any force feedback other than in the wheel. From my time on track it feels like my "butt sensor" is almost as important as my eyes. I can feel the car is going over the limit before I can see it's going over the limit. From what I've heard from others, SIM racing seems to be a great way to learn a new track, refine your line, and possibly even learn some wheel-to-wheel dynamics (assuming you have a 3 screen or VR setup). But it doesn't seem like a great way to learn the advanced car control that would get me a few more seconds. But I could be wrong! I probably need to try out some higher-end setups than the single-screen, G-27 rig I have.

 

FFB will never be truly accurate compared to real life. I wouldn't worry about that part too much, I actually had mine set quite light most of the time. Also, don't underestimate the single screen/G27 setup, that's what got me to Silverstone for GT Academy and taught me about vehicle dynamics/slip angle/etc. I didn't get started in the 'real world' until I had already accumulated nearly a decade (and 10,000+ hours) of sim racing and already had the muscle memory to catch slides without it being a conscious process, it just happened. My first unrecoverable slide actually just happened a couple of weeks ago at MSR-H over the launch, woops. So there's more that carries over than simply learning lines, but it may take more time investment than most people are willing to put in. With sims you have the time to really learn the nuances of what separates a quick lap from a FAST lap. That's my opinion at least. It's worth noting the last two winners of the Mazda Shootout were blazing fast sim racers. One was in GT Academy 2011, while the most recent was at Silverstone with me in 2012. We're taking over! :p

 

Sim racing is also a good place to dig in and learn how to analyze data. I barely scratched the surface, but you can jump in head first and learn how to analyze data with something like MoTec.

 

/endthreaddrift


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#33
Rev

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FFB will never be truly accurate compared to real life. I wouldn't worry about that part too much, I actually had mine set quite light most of the time. Also, don't underestimate the single screen/G27 setup, that's what got me to Silverstone for GT Academy and taught me about vehicle dynamics/slip angle/etc. I didn't get started in the 'real world' until I had already accumulated nearly a decade (and 10,000+ hours) of sim racing and already had the muscle memory to catch slides without it being a conscious process, it just happened. My first unrecoverable slide actually just happened a couple of weeks ago at MSR-H over the launch, woops. So there's more that carries over than simply learning lines, but it may take more time investment than most people are willing to put in. With sims you have the time to really learn the nuances of what separates a quick lap from a FAST lap. That's my opinion at least. It's worth noting the last two winners of the Mazda Shootout were blazing fast sim racers. One was in GT Academy 2011, while the most recent was at Silverstone with me in 2012. We're taking over! :p

 

I'm intrigued! Which sim are you using? iRacing or something else? 



#34
cabowabo

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I'm intrigued! Which sim are you using? iRacing or something else? 

 

I don't have a rig currently, but iRacing was where I ended up after moving on from Forza and PC stuff like LiveForSpeed/GTR2 and likely where I'll end up again. Now that I'm shifting focus to time trials, and hopefully w2w before too long, I'd like to put another rig together for staying sharp and just having some fun working on race craft. 


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#35
VoBoy

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This makes me think about any time I posted something like this. I've stopped btw, but the answer is always "So you think you're smarter than a team of BMW engineers?" Or insert whatever brand you like.  :biggrin:

 

I don't have any real input, just giving you an idea of what kind of responses you'll likely get. I will say I am in the "don't add FI to a NA car" camp. Because, well, I'm not smarter than a team of BMW engineers.  :cool:

 

Have you seen the failures a stock BMW (N/A and FI) has though?!  :laugh:  



#36
Dave

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Have you seen the failures a stock BMW (N/A and FI) has though?!  :laugh:  

 

Read bullet #4. Haha

 

https://www.trackjun...ove-on/?p=39699



#37
Rev

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Have you seen the failures a stock BMW (N/A and FI) has though?! :laugh:


My other car is an e46 330i, and the rear subframe situation is proof that even BMW gets it wrong from time to time :-)

#38
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I had a turbo on my s2000 used quality parts and good mechanics and a good time tuner. It was an adventure. I spent all of my track money keeping the car on the road because with the extra hp and a few trips to the track every component of the car was under designed. So I understand the need for adventure but for me the adventure was expensive and painful. My ultimate solution was yanking the turbo and getting a track Miata that I focused on weight reduction and safety equipment. In my case it was a 10x budget not a 2 x budget that eventually stopped the adventure. I value track time and driver mod as my best investment of time and money.