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robertcope

Track Notes CW

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I tried to write down my thoughts after this last weekend. They may not mean anything to you, since you don't have the visuals that are in my head, and I don't have them down in my head in a way that I can express them. I'm working on that. Anyhow, here is what I have, comments welcome. Oh, this is in pretty 'standard' Miata.

 

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15-14-13: light brake before transition, head down lowis, turn to get parallel to the left edge to set up for a long nice arc into 15, accelerate a bit after transition, then medium braking to light trail braking into 15, make sure to get into that apex and get parallel to the right edge of the track; hard turn into 14, out 1-2ft from right edge of track, late-ish turn to 13, you should be flat out before you turn in all the way to 11

 

12: flat out, don't miss the apex or turn in early

 

11: medium braking, get over almost to rubble strips on approach, turn in hard and fast, make sure to tuck up against the right curbing, then aim 3-4 ft from left of track at 10 and accelerate into 10 hard

 

10: honestly, I’m not good at this one; I try and go deep, turn hard and swoosh out of it, try and get the rear end rotated and heading up the hill ASAP and then just accelerate hard

 

9: full throttle, light left foot brake, turn in a tad later than you’d expect and end up on the rumble strips on the inside

 

8: again, turn in a bit late, flat out up the hill, track out all the way, setting yourself up for 7

 

7: smooth turn in, make sure to hit the apex and use the camber there, it should just flow perfectly, this can be done flat out

 

6-5: hard, late brake, don’t be afraid to throw the car into the turn -- smoothly, of course; quickly on the throttle as soon as you’re turning, ease into it but be full throttle quickly, track out, consistent steering through the turn, don’t feel the need to apex 5 on the inside, track out to the rumble strips then get over to the right and straighten out for 4

 

4: light to medium braking, turn at the end of the rumble stripes, track out to the service road, just don’t go off track there...

 

3: medium to hard brake before the jump/bump, ease off of brakes for the bump, light brake after, turn in late, accelerate hard through turn, track out to rumble strips, move over to lef

 

2-1: consistent throttle into 2, first apex at the end of the dirt patch at the end of the inner rumble strip, working into full throttle, track out a bit, unwind the steering wheel -- at this point, you can either track up the hill a bit, right at the black asphalt patch, then turn down straight towards start-finish, OR you can rotate the ass and try and tuck in and hold it... I think heading up the hill may net some MPH

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robert

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I tried to write down my thoughts after this last weekend. They may not mean anything to you, since you don't have the visuals that are in my head, and I don't have them down in my head in a way that I can express them. I'm working on that. Anyhow, here is what I have, comments welcome. Oh, this is in pretty 'standard' Miata.

 

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15-14-13: light brake before transition, head down lowis, turn to get parallel to the left edge to set up for a long nice arc into 15, accelerate a bit after transition, then medium braking to light trail braking into 15, make sure to get into that apex and get parallel to the right edge of the track; hard turn into 14, out 1-2ft from right edge of track, late-ish turn to 13, you should be flat out before you turn in all the way to 11

 

12: flat out, don't miss the apex or turn in early

 

11: medium braking, get over almost to rubble strips on approach, turn in hard and fast, make sure to tuck up against the right curbing, then aim 3-4 ft from left of track at 10 and accelerate into 10 hard

 

10: honestly, I’m not good at this one; I try and go deep, turn hard and swoosh out of it, try and get the rear end rotated and heading up the hill ASAP and then just accelerate hard

 

9: full throttle, light left foot brake, turn in a tad later than you’d expect and end up on the rumble strips on the inside

 

8: again, turn in a bit late, flat out up the hill, track out all the way, setting yourself up for 7

 

7: smooth turn in, make sure to hit the apex and use the camber there, it should just flow perfectly, this can be done flat out

 

6-5: hard, late brake, don’t be afraid to throw the car into the turn -- smoothly, of course; quickly on the throttle as soon as you’re turning, ease into it but be full throttle quickly, track out, consistent steering through the turn, don’t feel the need to apex 5 on the inside, track out to the rumble strips then get over to the right and straighten out for 4

 

4: light to medium braking, turn at the end of the rumble stripes, track out to the service road, just don’t go off track there...

 

3: medium to hard brake before the jump/bump, ease off of brakes for the bump, light brake after, turn in late, accelerate hard through turn, track out to rumble strips, move over to lef

 

2-1: consistent throttle into 2, first apex at the end of the dirt patch at the end of the inner rumble strip, working into full throttle, track out a bit, unwind the steering wheel -- at this point, you can either track up the hill a bit, right at the black asphalt patch, then turn down straight towards start-finish, OR you can rotate the ass and try and tuck in and hold it... I think heading up the hill may net some MPH

=====

 

robert

 

Spoken like a future instructor. Thanks for taking the time to post the write up. I added a few notes below.

In the event you enter a turn and run out of track at track out. Get the car straight and put two feet in ( brake, clutch ). Don't be a hero!!! Left foot braking is an advanced technique

 

T12: Late apex this turn and get as close to the apex without hitting it. You will be amazed at the amount of track out you will have to play with

 

T10: The ideal line for a newbie is to turn in and stay to the right while going deep, then tapping brake to set the car before turn in. More advanced drivers will straighten out the turn by clipping the rumble strip of T11 and drawing a straight line to the apex/braking zone of T10 then trail braking to rotate the car.

 

T7: Always Late Apex this turn while looking through the turn and get as close to the apex as possible. Hitting the curb at the apex will load your suspension and throw you across the track. Never hit this curb and or freak out if you do.

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Going CW I have a few trouble spots. 15,14,13 are difficult for me. I can make 15 very fast but 14 is difficult to slow down enough to make smoothly, so I have started braking between between 15 and 14. I rode with T stiles in his miata and was like being on a majic carpet ( very smooth)

 

12 is easy.

 

11/10 is hard to do fast I go wide apex late and the squeeze on the throttle. I have had many peaple go much faster by turning in early and drifting.

 

9 is also slow for me, I always brake too much. Last time I rode with a Mustang he showed me how to do it. Just don't go crazy with the hard turn in and let the car come around smoothly and make a wider loop around 9. There is plenty of time before 8.

 

7 is fast and can lead to trouble because it is so fast. I make sure that I have a late turn in and a feel very sure about my line into the apex.

 

6/5 is fun, if I miss it there is a good place to run off between 6 and 5.

 

4 is another problem for me, There is a wall on the trackout and I make sure I brake hard enough to no seat making the turn in.

 

3 Brake before and after hump. I love to play in this corner.

 

2/1 nice fun sweeper before the front.

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I had to learn 2 different lines that weekend. haha.

 

in the pontiac:

15/14/13: try and keep the land yacht under control as it bobs down into 15 from the straight. fit the car through 15 into 14. hit the gas just before the apex on 14 and floor it through 13.

12: awesome full throttle right, flow out onto the straight

11-10: hard break, wind up close to 11, go deep into 10, wind up the apex and track out.

9: tap the break, grab the curbing.

8: smooth in, late apex. track out AFTER the dirt patch.

7: flat out, awesome corner.

6-5: hard break, apex after the dirt patch were the paint bubbles out. keep the same steering input all the way through. heavy FF car will push out. hit the curbing on the exit, not to late though, don't throw rocks at the cars behind me.

4: break early on the black patch.

3: light break for bump, lift and back on hard break after as the car settles. find that little orange flag, apex just after. track out.

2-1: light break smooth turn in. wind in the apex (white paint), full throttle all the way, don't fight, enough room.

 

In a track miata:

15/14/13: grab 3rd on the straight, wind up 15, easy into 14 and punch it through 13

12: dont lift. turn in late-ish, track out.

11-10:hard break, down to thrid, settle and turn in, come in to 10 tighter and wind up the late apex.

9: tap breaks, turn in, grab the curb, lift.

8: late apex after the dirt, track out after the dirt patch

7:awesome corner. don't lift, let it flow out.

6-5: hard break, grab thrid, settle and turn in. roll on throttle and ease through one input. track out and try not to kick up anymore concrete.

4: break after the black patch

3:break after the hump. see the flag. track out.

2-1: lift into 2 and easy up to the white patch. then go for it.

 

that was more for my own purposes...

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T10: The ideal line for a newbie is to turn in and stay to the right while going deep, then tapping brake to set the car before turn in. More advanced drivers will straighten out the turn by clipping the rumble strip of T11 and drawing a straight line to the apex/braking zone of T10 then trail braking to rotate the car.

 

 

This alone is worth a few tenths, and it feels safter despite bigger entry speeds. Not sure why some instructors still teach outside-in here, better to shorten the track and maximize time spent at speed carried thru 12 and 11.

 

Edit: must be the trail braking required.

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I thought I'd add some satellite imagery and data of a couple key corners for me. These two complexes were the biggest time gainers for me. The images are from trackmaster (android app) looking at my fastest lap on Friday, a 2:00.3. Green means I am gaining speed, red means I am losing speed, blue (no green or red) is maintenance speed. Small red spots sandwiched by green are shifts or big lifts.

 

A couple of notes before I begin, these lines do require throttle steering and trailbraking. Know how to do them before attempting, if you crash your pretty car I will not be held liable :). If you want to practice these techniques use T10.

 

1st the 6/5 complex:

Nov192010141PM20101125_141751.png

The key here is to maintain speed! You also will want to set yourself up for the mini straight coming between 4 and 5. Start braking according to speed, but be stingy with the brakes. I hard brake just long enough to downshift. Steady hand on wheel, car will want to veer to the inside. When comfortable with trailbraking use the tendency to veer inside to let the car start steering towards apex and transition into a steady steering input. towards apex. Slowly lift off brake as the car points in towards apex, prepare to get back on throttle. Once steering input is set and you are at apex get back on throttle. Don't be afraid of the right pedal here, I have no problem going full throttle, but be ready to throttle steer for turn in of 5. A slight (I said slight) lift at trackout of 6 will set you up for turn in of 5 then go back full throttle and hang on! Throttle steer on trackout of five to stay on track (slight lift, again I said slight). Lots of time gained here if you can throttle steer and trailbrake.

 

Now let's look at the 2/1 complex:

Nov192010141PM20101125_141938.png

This is relatively easy compared to 5/6 but is much faster so it will be a lot scarier. For this corner in a Lotus or a car of similar/slower speed don't even think about the brake pedal. Also, do everything slowly (I said slowly) and very steady. Inputs are minimal here and slow. The key is to never upset the car and it will stick at much higher speed than you would think. Coming into 2 set the car on the left before the curbing. Slowly roll the wheel toward the right when reaching mid curbing. Apex is the dip at the end of the curbing on the right so steering inputs should match and you should only need one long slow input. At the same time as you start rolling in the steering input start rolling out the gas. You are basically trailbraking but using the gas pedal to do so. By apex you should be at maintenance throttle but not much before. By apex you should also have steering input set for the rest of the corner. At apex you can start rolling in the throttle. As long as the car is set you can roll in pretty quickly. If you know how to throttle steer well (without panicking) trust the car and roll in the throttle as quickly as you can without slamming into it. The key is to stay away from the marbles but if you are on line you can be full throttle at apex and stick it as long as the car is set. If the car is not fully set a couple small (I said small) lifts will correct it.

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those 2 complexes are way easy in my car....6/5 is brake and floor it entering 6....don't brake again till 4.

 

the 2/1 is easy....you brake for 3 (for me just before the hump) line up right as soon as the car lands and late apex 3...foot to the floor entering 3 as soon as i start turn in....then don't lift till T15.

 

you guys just have too much power.

 

 

just hayes you looked damn fast...I tried to not be in your way for too long the few laps I was in front of you while you ran me down and passed me :)

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Why are you guys braking before and after the bump @ t3? I brake as late as possible, which means hitting the lump under full braking. I think the lump actually helps to slow me down allowing me to brake later than if it was flat.

 

 

I brake some before the hump at 3 because if I do all may braking the hump after I am too hot into 3. The faster you go over the hump the more you fly. Too much braking before the hump and then you are too slow in the little bit of track between the hump and the turn in to 3.

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I thought I'd add some satellite imagery and data of a couple key corners for me. These two complexes were the biggest time gainers for me. The images are from trackmaster (android app) looking at my fastest lap on Friday, a 2:00.3. Green means I am gaining speed, red means I am losing speed, blue (no green or red) is maintenance speed. Small red spots sandwiched by green are shifts or big lifts.

 

A couple of notes before I begin, these lines do require throttle steering and trailbraking. Know how to do them before attempting, if you crash your pretty car I will not be held liable :). If you want to practice these techniques use T10.

 

1st the 6/5 complex:

Nov192010141PM20101125_141751.png

The key here is to maintain speed! You also will want to set yourself up for the mini straight coming between 4 and 5. Start braking according to speed, but be stingy with the brakes. I hard brake just long enough to downshift. Steady hand on wheel, car will want to veer to the inside. When comfortable with trailbraking use the tendency to veer inside to let the car start steering towards apex and transition into a steady steering input. towards apex. Slowly lift off brake as the car points in towards apex, prepare to get back on throttle. Once steering input is set and you are at apex get back on throttle. Don't be afraid of the right pedal here, I have no problem going full throttle, but be ready to throttle steer for turn in of 5. A slight (I said slight) lift at trackout of 6 will set you up for turn in of 5 then go back full throttle and hang on! Throttle steer on trackout of five to stay on track (slight lift, again I said slight). Lots of time gained here if you can throttle steer and trailbrake.

 

Now let's look at the 2/1 complex:

Nov192010141PM20101125_141938.png

This is relatively easy compared to 5/6 but is much faster so it will be a lot scarier. For this corner in a Lotus or a car of similar/slower speed don't even think about the brake pedal. Also, do everything slowly (I said slowly) and very steady. Inputs are minimal here and slow. The key is to never upset the car and it will stick at much higher speed than you would think. Coming into 2 set the car on the left before the curbing. Slowly roll the wheel toward the right when reaching mid curbing. Apex is the dip at the end of the curbing on the right so steering inputs should match and you should only need one long slow input. At the same time as you start rolling in the steering input start rolling out the gas. You are basically trailbraking but using the gas pedal to do so. By apex you should be at maintenance throttle but not much before. By apex you should also have steering input set for the rest of the corner. At apex you can start rolling in the throttle. As long as the car is set you can roll in pretty quickly. If you know how to throttle steer well (without panicking) trust the car and roll in the throttle as quickly as you can without slamming into it. The key is to stay away from the marbles but if you are on line you can be full throttle at apex and stick it as long as the car is set. If the car is not fully set a couple small (I said small) lifts will correct it.

 

Nice illustration/Notes, Justin. I'd like to see you drive a Miata. I think you would be a natural ;D

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FWIW, Justin's images come from Trackmaster on the Android. I believe he has a 5 or 10 mhz external receiver, as well, which is why it is so much smoother than the Google Earth data I attached, which also came from Trackmaster.

 

robert

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This is a good discussion we should do this for all of the tracks as we visit them! Great idea Robert!

 

just hayes you looked damn fast...I tried to not be in your way for too long the few laps I was in front of you while you ran me down and passed me :)
Thanks, you weren't too bad at all, the mirror tap let me know I'd be getting a point by soon. I just like to stay close so you don't forget ;). One note though, you did your point by with your right hand, if you want someone to go around on the passenger side stick your left hand over the roof.

 

I brake some before the hump at 3 because if I do all may braking the hump after I am too hot into 3. The faster you go over the hump the more you fly. Too much braking before the hump and then you are too slow in the little bit of track between the hump and the turn in to 3.
I have to brake some before the hump too because if i don't t3 would be very very hairy. The car is so upset coming over the hump it doesn't hunker down like normal under braking.

 

Nice illustration/Notes, Justin. I'd like to see you drive a Miata. I think you would be a natural ;D
I hope that's a complement, lol j/k. Seriously though, thanks. The miata and lotus are very similar in terms of how to drive them except it seems the Lotus is more sensitive to things that upset. So all inputs have to be small or gradual. It sounds/looks like you miata guys can toss the car around a bit more.

 

FWIW, Justin's images come from Trackmaster on the Android. I believe he has a 5 or 10 mhz external receiver, as well, which is why it is so much smoother than the Google Earth data I attached, which also came from Trackmaster.robert
Yup, screen captures straight from the new tablet I used last weekend (using trackmaster image share function). I have a 5Hz receiver, wanted a 10 but the only one I could find had to be shipped direct from overseas (if enough people are interested I'd do a group buy). I've said it before and I'll say it again, trackmaster is an outstanding deal! The only person I know who doesn't like it is Shuko. Otherwise I have heard nothing but good things. My only complaint is I wish there was a desktop data analyzer. Otherwise it is perfect for trackdays and DEs. I am actually considering using it in the SRF when/if I get one.

 

Here is an image showing how long it took me to learn this direction (another cool feature of trackmaster). I am a better driver now but it was a lot quicker than learning CCW! The first few laps are following Paul and trading positions with a White TC, then once I had the line I started pushing different corners. The lines to look at are the blue and yellow lines (average speed and lap time). Got to love OTDs 22 lap session!

Nov192010141PM_laps_graph20101127_100254.png

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Turn in on 7: I turn when I just see the first bit of yellow paint at the apex curbing.

 

Track out at 6: The track flattens there, and can rotate your car towards the apex at 5, if you are ready for it. Useful.

 

Turn 2-1 is great for outlap traction sampling before you start your first hot lap.

 

Don't mess with turn 4 in this direction, and have a plan to get out of it if something goes bad. This is one of the danger spots in this direction, imo, and I've seen a few cars in the tires here. In the rain it's really slippy.

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Here is what I did today...

 

When I come off the front straight, I was staying low and point the car at the pointy end of the grass. The left side of my car was on the blend line. I was catching anyone trying to come down the hill into 15. If you ask me, it gives you a lot more room to brake if you chicken out. It is a little bumpy and you need to be smooth on the brakes or your back end will dance around...definitely gets your attention. Also, you have to rotate the car more into 15 with this line. I did have a problem with a Porsche that kept running away from me coming out of 13 into 12 all the wat to 11. I'm guessing my entry into 15 maybe the issue?

 

T8 - you'll see the white line straighten out of the apex, I run the right tires right along that line. Never ran out of track.

 

T3 - Brake, lift/bump, brake...there is a low area after the bump which I put my right tire on and turned in on. The car seemed to just dart in towards the apex. It feels late to me but I hit the apex everytime I hit that low spot. When I missed it, I understeered and missed the apex.

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